Interview with Hugh H. Mo
Hugh H. Mo, former Deputy Police Commissioner of the New York Police Department and a veteran lawyer in representing Chinese clients shares his advice for students interested in practicing international law.
By: Kyle Buchoff, staff member
Hugh H. Mo, Esq., principal of The Law Firm of Hugh H. Mo, P.C. and lawyer with over 40 years of experience, shares his advice for students interested in practicing international law, his inspiring personal story, and his thoughts on representing Chinese clients and the current U.S.-China relationship. In the first installment, Mr. Mo shares his thoughts on the necessary background and traits that successful international lawyers require for success, and on choosing appropriate metrics for success.
Hugh H. Mo has lived an extraordinary life. Born in Shanghai, he left as an infant and lived in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Spain until he came to the United States sixty years ago. After spending his formative years in the Lower East Side of New York, he obtained his JD from Boston University School of Law and became the first Asian-American ever appointed to the Manhattan District Attorney’s office. While serving there, he mentored a young Sonia Sotomayor. In her memoir, Justice Sotomayor recalled Mr. Mo as an “all around confounder of stereotypes.”
After serving eight years there, Mr. Mo was appointed as Deputy Commissioner in Charge of Trials in the New York City Police Department, at the time, the highest ranking Asian-American official in the City of New York. After he left public service in 1988, he founded and served as Partner-In-Charge of the China Practice Group of Whitman & Ransom (predecessor to Whitman, Breed, Abbot & Morgan). There, he represented Chinese banking, corporate, litigation and real estate clients in the United States and abroad.
In January 1994, Mr. Mo established The Law Firm of Hugh H. Mo, P.C., which specializes in representing Chinese clients in corporate, commercial litigation, criminal defense, government investigations, investment and real estate matters. The firm also serves as U.S. counsel for foreign and domestic entrepreneurs. corporate entities and government entities of the People’s Republic of China in the United States.
The Journal interviewed Mr. Mo in a large conference room adorned with memorabilia of his life and career. Recognitions and awards from civic and government entities covered one wall, while a three-level-display shelf on the opposite side of the room held certificates and commemorative souvenirs from cases and exchanges with police departments in China Taiwan, and Hong Kong.
After a few moments, Mr. Mo charged into the room with a broad smile that channeled his warm personality. He bounded forward with energy and solid purpose as he approached his chair. Before sitting down, he offered a friendly, but firm, two-pump handshake.
The Importance of Cross-Cultural Understanding
Anticipating some of our prepared questions, Mr. Mo immediately began, “My suggestion to young people who want to practice a subset of international law is to be a good student of history, politics, and current events. Further, you cannot divorce yourself from other cultures.” Referring to his own work with Chinese clients as an example, he noted, “No one could successfully represent Chinese clients or deal with issues involving China without really understanding the language, culture and institutions.”
This understanding is necessary for communication across cultures, which requires far more than language ability: “You’ve got to appreciate the culture and history. You also have to appreciate the local way of doing things.” He further explained that understanding the culture, history and language of a group creates an understanding of an “ethnic mindset,” which is critical to true communication.
As Mr. Mo explained, successful international lawyers seek to differentiate themselves by attaining cultural understanding. To demonstrate this point, he explained several degrees of connection with China as an example: “If you want to know China, or another country, go there. If you want to really understand that country, go and live there.”
A student of foreign cultures will learn about the expectations of clients with different backgrounds. He gave some examples in the context of China including building relationships and conducting business over a meal, and first establishing friendship and commonality before beginning serious negotiations: “The Chinese form business relationships over food and drink. First, you engage in pleasantry, then talk some business, and finally adjourn to eat. People break down barriers and become closer by eating and drinking together. Ultimately, it’s how you interact on a human level that leads to that business deal’s conclusion. The Chinese have an expression: 打成一片 (dá chéng yí piàn), that means ‘everybody’s on the same page.’”
However, like in the US, mindsets differ across Greater China. Mr. Mo contrasted the gruffness and pushiness of New Yorkers with the friendly, unrushed nature of American Southerners to explain different mindsets across greater China, “Even though they share a common language and culture, the people in Beijing and Taipei think very differently.”
He then explained how this cultural knowledge creates a valuable tool for lawyers practicing in an international context: “The more you understand the language, the culture, and the way of doing things, down to manners, the better you will understand your clients, adversaries and counterparts.”
Mr. Mo also encouraged students to befriend classmates from different parts of the world. While this advice was not surprising, his corollary certainly was: “Don’t be shy. Ask them provocative questions. I believe that a lawyer must be imbued with essential curiosity. Ask ‘why, why, why, why, why’ until someone says, ‘shut up.’ We should endeavor to understand different world views.”
How to Prepare for a Career in International Law during Law School
Mr. Mo further explained that students interested in an international law career should first learn the black-letter law of the areas that interest them, as learning the international aspect later is comparatively simple. Law students should also learn the law while recognizing its dual purposes: “First the rule of law is a social and political instrument. The law’s second purpose is to enable people to engage in business. In both aspects lawyers seek resolution.”
Most importantly, lawyers in general must always remember their primary role as problem solvers. Mr. Mo emphasized that “lawyers are only as good as how well they solve problems. When you have a toothache, you visit a dentist. If you have an orthopedic issue, you go to an orthopedist. We lawyers, however, must be generalists. I’m a believer that to be successful as a lawyer, you’ve got to be solution-oriented and know how to serve clients, by resolving their problems.”
He addressed subtle misconceptions that influenced how other lawyers operate. “People don’t come to my office to learn the law. They will learn some law while I resolve their problems. My job is to demystify the law and find the most efficient way to resolve the problem. Similarly, my job is not to write a thesis. If one page would solve the problem, I write one page.” Mr. Mo emphasized applying both flexible and creative approaches to crafting client solutions.
He then explained how he solves problems for his Chinese clients: “Sometimes Chinese clients do not know what is pertinent, or what they believe to be pertinent may not be, or they don’t tell you the full story.” Relating back to the importance of understanding an ethnic mentality, he noted that the cliché that Chinese clients are not completely forthcoming represents a misunderstanding of how they communicate. Rather, their cultural background simply manifests in revealing information differently.
Creating a Definition of Success
Mr. Mo implored students to consider how they define success. To illustrate his point, he recalled an influential talk that one of his 1L professors gave on the last day of class: “I know a lot of you are going to do well and a lot of you are not going to do well on the final exam. Others will be in the middle. You will all be ranked. But when you leave law school, you’ll go into the real world to practice law. You’ll go into a big pond or a small pond. Some people will go to the ocean. No matter where you go, success will depend on continuing to strive, improve, and advance. Where you are at any one particular juncture will not define your potential to rise.”
Mr. Mo in fact did not perform well on that final, but took the professor’s words to heart. He reflected that law school can seem like a rat race to snag positions on law review, clerkships and Big Law, but cautioned students to not let the “‘Superstars’ of your class make you feel depressed. In contrast to them, when the professor called on me, I normally would utter ‘I pass to my learned colleague.’” Unfortunately, this did not always work out for him. “Most professors would pounce on me because I was the only Chinese kid in the entire class of one hundred students. They would mercilessly pounce on me until I gave up. In fact, some classmates would laugh and snicker ‘Oh my God, Hugh is a dummy.’”
The young Mr. Mo had also been spending considerable effort learning about the world outside law school, “I probably didn’t ace most of my class assignments because I spent a lot of my precious time pouring over the New York Times. I tried to read every article every day to understand what was happening in the world. Even the guys in my study group would pick on me for falling behind in the class reading because I valued reading the news.”
Eventually, his classmates would read about him in the New York Times, “However, 10 years after we graduated from law school, The New York Times profiled my appointment as Deputy Police Commissioner of the New York Police Department, and the Dean invited me back for the 10th reunion as a breakfast speaker!”
Mr. Mo further explained that everybody pursues different paths and hopefully finds what works for them. He also clarified that he was not trying to redefine the metric of success. However, he cautioned, “Certain things are given. To be successful, you must make a comfortable living and become an expert in your area of the law.” Reflecting on his experience as a Big Law partner, He explained, “I don’t miss the fancy Park Avenue office. There, I attended meetings with 40-60 other partners, and experienced a lot of competition. Everybody was trying to outdo each other. Some people thrive in that environment. However, the law sometimes leads people to seek the ‘brass ring’ of partnership, which has held an exalted place for years.”
Attorneys who attain the ‘brass ring’ do not necessarily become happy, “Those who make partner may be unhappy because they are not rainmakers. Even rainmakers can be unhappy. At Whitman & Ransom I noticed that many people thought when they got the brass ring, they would suddenly become successful and happy. But some found no satisfaction at making partner because by then, work didn’t excite them anymore.”
This discussion naturally pivoted to how Mr. Mo defined and pursued his own goals, “I saw partners who were very, very unhappy, and depressed because they were in a rut. I left to start my own practice. When people gasped, ‘You’re crazy, why don’t you associate with a big law firm?’ I replied that I want to do things on my own. I have this spirit. I want freedom and I want to be a maverick in some ways.”
Mr. Mo warns young lawyers against narrowing their definition of success and becoming extremely risk adverse during law school: “Unfortunately, many law students get tunnel vision and seek the trifecta of law review, clerkships and Big Law jobs.”
Besides encouraging students to figure out their own definition of success, Mr. Mo implored students to never let setbacks deter them from seeking their goals. He urged not defining setbacks in comparison to the conduct of others, and not viewing setbacks as completely negative. Instead, he urged students to compete against themselves and learn how to avoid the mistake moving forward: “If I fall, I find out why I fell down. I do not hesitate to engage in constructive self-criticism.”
Mr. Mo emphasized that procrastinators do not make successful lawyers; successful lawyers seek to actively get things done. “You cannot say mañana, mañana, mañana. I like to do things right away, even if I don’t do things as well as I could have with more time. I don’t say, ‘Well, you know, I’m going to get my act together and then get things done.’ What happens if don’t get my act together?” Mr. Mo emphasized the need for discipline. Discipline comes from a drive to succeed and a sense of purpose.
Mr. Mo also encouraged lawyers to continuously be generous at heart throughout their career: “I remember my mother used to say that if you’re the only one eating in the room, there’s something wrong. Pretty soon you won’t be eating because it won’t be yours. The other people will take it away from you. It’s that simple.” This maxim applies to everything from sharing food with the needy to sharing assignments and credit with other lawyers. Beyond career interest, Mr. Mo explained that generosity contributes to personal strength. By helping others, “This sense of satisfaction reinforces your sense of self-confidence and self-worth.”
Optimism and Openness
Though approaching 70, Mr. Mo still looks and feels excited. Part of his excitement derives from charting his own life’s story. He explains, “You’ve got to have your own story and shape it consistently. I constantly adopt resolutions to improve myself and look at life in terms of continuing growth. I imagine being a sapling reaching for the sky and becoming a big oak tree; tall and strong.”
Mr. Mo explained a key event that helped reinforce his optimism and openness: “I was in court as a young prosecutor, and I was very intimidated. I approached the bench and said, ‘Judge, I really feel very uncomfortable that I am handling a tough hearing. I’m here by myself without any experience. My adversary is a seasoned lawyer. I hope that you forgive me.’ And you know how the judge replied? ‘Say, young man, I’ve been doing this for 40 something years, and I’m still learning. Don’t worry, I’ll be backing you up!’
He winked at me as I stepped back. When my experienced adversary tried to pounce, the judge would say, ‘sit down, sit down.’ He allowed me to blossom. Later, I was told that that judge was an irascible, nasty fart. But you know what? I went up there with a lot of humility and sought his help, so he wanted to show me how tough he was. He basically leveled the playing field for me.”
Kyle Buchoff is a second-year student at Columbia Law School and a Staff member of the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law. He graduated from University of California, Davis with a B.A. in Chinese and English Literature.